In case you hadn't figured it out, my family and I are pretty heavily involved in our church. There are some people out there who apparently don't agree with how we do things. That's fine. Honestly, I have no problem with that. In fact, I would encourage you to read what they have to say: HERE and HERE and HERE.
Now here's what you need to know. They are entitled to their opinion. I have one - why shouldn't they? I frequently share mine. Why shouldn't they? I have a website where I can do that. Why shouldn't they?
What I have an issue with is that, when I chose to share my opinion with them in the form of a comment on one of the above linked sites, the author of said site BLOCKED my comment. Not only that, I happen to know that my friend's comment was also blocked, leading me to believe that we weren't the only ones!
It's one thing to start an intelligent discussion of topics of interest to various parties. It's an entirely different thing to start an argument by making inflamitory remarks, inciting a blog riot, and then proceeding to screen out most of the comments of those whose opinions differ from their own. It's cowardly and only proves that he or she feels that their argument isn't strong enough to withstand criticism. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.
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that is really weird! I hate when people refuse to listen to both sides of an argument. Its easy to do, but it doesn't make it right! I'm sorry that's happening to you guys.
ReplyDeleteBecky:
ReplyDeleteI received your email notifying me about this blog entry of yours. Im guessing that your email means that you want me to participate in this discussion, or at least read how you feel I've been unfair to not allow all comments to be posted on my website.
Yep, Im guilty. I've blocked some comments. Lots of them were from angry people in the church that I wrote about, and they used language that I would not expect church-people to use. Others were simply endless repeats of the same thing that others were saying. For example, how many comments do we really need - that say this:
"You cant judge us until you've gone to our church for a really long time". Or another common one: "You shouldnt say anything bad about the way our church does things, because we get really good results (we help lots of people, feed the poor, etc.)". I suppose the (very large) Mormon church could also use those same arguments to defend themselves against anyone who dares to question their doctrine or methods. Regardless though, I did let some of those types of comments go through, even though I think they fail to address the issues that I had talked about in my article.
You say we've "screened out the comments of those whose opinions differ from our own". You'll notice on my blog article, that I currently have more comments against my point of view, than for it. One of them even accuses me of blasphemy, another says that Satan is using me.
Becky, you may not allow this comment of mine to be posted on your blog. I have no problem with that either. After all, it's your privately owned blog, and you can say or do anything you want with it. Blogs like yours and mine are not publicly owned bulletin boards in which everyone has "a right" to say whatever they want. The blog owner is like the host of a house, and if a guest is being discourteous in any way, the host has the right to ask them to leave. Wouldnt you agree?
--Jim B.
www.OldTruth.com
Now Jim - If I did that, wouldn't I be guilty of the exact thing I fault you for doing? Does that sound fair? Or wise?
ReplyDeleteAs for the comments you cite - I guess we'll never know for sure whether or not you're telling the truth without the privilege of reading their words ourselves. You'll have to forgive me for choosing not to blindly take your word for it.
At first I found it hard to believe that someone from GCC would use language in an email/blog comment to you, but the more I think about it, the more I find it possible, or even likely, for a couple of reasons. 1. The person is a sinner, and we do things we regret from time to time. 2. The word sex seems to bother you an awful lot. That tells me that there are probably a lot of words out there that you find unacceptable, for some reason or another... (is it because it's not in the bible? maybe he should have said, "This is God-ordained 'laying together'?").
Seriously, Jim, all I'm trying to say to you and your friends on your site is that it's a really bad idea to speak (especially negatively) of something you don't fully understand, and, despite what you say, you can't understand something without first checking it out - not by listening to sound bites on a website, but by actually stepping foot in the building, talking to some people that go there, meeting one or two of the pastors, etc.
I would enjoy the opportunity to introduce you to my friends at GCC. I know them - the pastors - I've eaten meals with them and spent time with them, and you know what? They love Jesus. They want others to love Him too.
Girl.. you are awesome!
ReplyDeleteWhat I want to know is what in the world were you doing up at 7:44am on a Saturday morning?
ReplyDeleteWow! I went to that sight and read all those articles. I thought pursuing God's kingdom on earth would bring opposition from the world, not from other believers. If these people would be this passionate about winning the lost as they are for judging other believers, we could truly have a great harvest of souls! What a shame.
ReplyDeleteQuestions for Baker:
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that the people who wrote those articles are NOT "passionate about winning the lost"?
Also, where in the bible does it say that Christians should never stand in opposition to other Christians? Doesnt the bible speak of reproof, correction, rebuke, and even "expelling" at times?
Question for Becky:
If someone is convinced, for example, that rock concerts for worship, are a "conforming to the world" (as Romans 12:2 and James 4:4 talks about), why would they need to spend a great deal of time at the church before you would feel they could express opposition to it? It's already been admitted that the rock concert worship is going on, and the videos are out on the web for everyone to see.
Lets say for a moment that it's true - that rock concert worship is wrong. Would anything else that I'd see, during a visit to your church, make rock concert music right? Wouldnt you admit that in such a case, no matter how good the rest of the church is, rock concert music would still be wrong?
Im not trying to say that rock concerts are the whole issue, Im just using that as an example to spark meaningful discussion.
Just curious on these things. Anyway, thanks for letting me post on your blog Becky. Also, I appreciate your willingness to converse on my blog these past few days as well.
--Jim
Becky, not that we should carry on dissension, but they did post three of my comments, if you are interested. I pretty much bared my heart and really have learned my passion is to reach the lost like I was reached. I am on fire and will remain so. I am done posting here for now, however.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2005/10/granger_a_great.php
Comment for Jim:
ReplyDeleteI didn't say they weren't passionate, I said they weren't AS passionate. Otherwise, they might try spending their time commenting or conversing on secular sites with unbelievers-- trying to convince them that Jesus died for them. I am no theologian, so I do not propose to debate with someone as intelligent as yourself who is extremely skilled in using the bible as a weapon of condemnation on other believers who are simply doing their best to reach the lost and trying to live a life modeled after the love and compassion of Jesus Christ. I am just a Christ Follower who feels hurt by the attacks on a church who has the heart of my savior. I had no idea you would have yet another argument for my simple comment. I was simply talking to a friend on her blog about my dismay at the division in the church. So, in the meantime, I am choosing to do what I do with my husband, my daughter, my students, and all people in this world and follow Philippians 4:8
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things." Maybe you could look at stories like Heather and Steve and thousands of others and take time to understand the truth, nobility, purity, and admirable excellence of what this church is doing.
One last question or two for Baker:
ReplyDeleteHow do you know? You made a statement that these people are not "AS" passionate about winning souls. What information do you base that statement on? How can you be sure that they are not out there interacting with unbelievers, in the manner that you suggest, on secular sites?
When you say that someone is "using the bible as a weapon of condemnation on other believers":
How do you differentiate that from when a Christian is obeying what 2 Timothy 3:16 says: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"?
Anyway, thanks again Becky. And it was nice talking to you - Heather - on the Slice website yesterday. I appreciate the comment that you just posted here.
--Jim
One LAST question for Jim:
ReplyDeleteYou're right. I made assuptions on little information. I apologize. But one last question, isn't that how this whole thing got started? YOU made assumptions about our church on VERY little information. I appreciate your passion for God, thanks for increasing my prayer time today and increasing my "training in righteousness." I will not be visiting your site again or reading Becky's comments again. Our pastor has asked for this to stop because there is kingdom work to be done. and though you chose not to publish his letter, I agree. Again, thanks for your passion related to the things of God.
Baker:
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question:
No, I do not believe that I wrote about anything based on assumptions. All of the things that I wrote about are well publicized and admitted to. For example, rock concerts for worship in the youth group, etc.
None of those things require extended attendance at the church to make a determination on. Now, had I said (for example) "this church never preaches on repentance", that would be an assumption on my part. I would have to be there for many months to make that kind of determination, and therefore I havent made any such statements. The things that I wrote about, can be biblically judged as being either right or wrong, and are not just a matter of style or preference.
Your church may have a tendency to attract additional focus and scrutiny on these things, because it holds itself up as a model to other churches, through your ICC conferences, etc. Many of us are very concerned about what we are seeing, therefore - we speak out. Our motive is for good, and believe it or not, I believe that your church and pastor's motives are also for good.
As far as your pastor's letter. He attempted to post that at the Slice website, and not mine. If your pastor sends me an email asking me to do so, I'll post the letter as it's own blog entry on my site, as long as he understands that I will comment on it afterwards.
I've read the letter, and to be honest, it does much more to prove the point that I was making in my blog article (about "The Ends Justify The Means"), than it helps to alleviate the concerns that were brought up. But again I'd be more than happy to post it in a place of prominence on my website if he would want me to.
I wish you all well in your walk with the Lord, and I have appreciated the chance to discuss this with you.
--Jim
Sorry for my absence lately - been busy at work.
ReplyDeleteJim - It would help me if you would define as a "rock concert as worship." What is it that makes it a rock concert? Is it the lyrics? The style of music? The volume?
Thanks for
I was blocked, too.
ReplyDelete